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um this episode is skeptico you gotta

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deliver the goods so the goods right now

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that I'm holding you accountable to is

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those IQ scored and you say you got them

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and if you've got them you got to show

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them so you keep your research for 10

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years

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those boxes so I've thrown them a number

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of them away of course because I'm I've

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been doing this for 44 years

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I've I've only got one box left now

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so that there's just simply no way I can

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go back it just doesn't ring true I just

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straight up it doesn't ring true to me

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welcome to skeptico where we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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today we welcome near-death experience

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richer and author pmh Atwater her latest

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book is the forever Angels near-death

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experiences in childhood and their life

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long impact a book that none other than

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Bruce Grayson calls unprecedented

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Kenneth ring calls truly groundbreaking

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and pin Von lommel says is a very

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important valuable contribution now if

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you know anything about near-death

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experience science that is the real

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study of the phenomenon you know that

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all the folks I just mentioned are very

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prominent researchers with distinguished

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credentials so their endorsement of this

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book I think is quite significant pmh

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welcome it's great to have you here

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good to be here very good

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so pmhu known as a real Trailblazer

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innovator within the near-death

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experience Community particularly

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because you have always maintained this

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focus on after effects

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and that's been your thing and you've

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brought forth some really important

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insights and change the directions

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research in this latest book The forever

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Angels you took it in a slightly

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different term you looked at life long

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after effects among 120 people who had

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experienced an nde very early in life

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why did you choose that particular

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protocol well bear in mind this is 397

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people

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so I'm looking at my previous research

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of those that were maybe

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you know kids up to maybe 20s and 30s

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and then

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I'm now extending it to people in their

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70s and 80s

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and I'm saying to them did having a

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near-death experience as a child make

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any difference in your life

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and more or less an essay kind of thing

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I suppose

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um but I was asking them to tell me

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about it

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and and I'll tell you

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ah some of the replies were so

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tear-stained I could hardly read them

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well one man

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sent me a book I mean literally a book

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including pictures of his family

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and although the things that he was now

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retired and looking back

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and you know Bruce Grayson said

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nobody's ever done this nobody's ever

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thought of doing this you know looking

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at kids as kids from birth at the age of

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five especially and then you know a

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little bit older and then you know

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looking at the near-death experience

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had a lot of experience with adult

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experiencers teenagers and adults

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and you know you know my research base

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is nearly 5 000 adults and children

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and uh so you know I I've been pursuing

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this kind of subject for a long time

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and looking at it deeper and deeper and

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deeper so this time

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I wanted to compare

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what the younger ones are saying with

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what the grandmas and grandpas are

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saying looking back

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and it's really interesting with these

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older people really anywhere from about

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50 to 80.

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they had to be able to uh establish

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that they had had a near-death

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experience at you know when they were

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dead

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and and this one woman who's 82.

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Jeff she had a sister about 10 years

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younger

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and I talked with his sister and she

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said everything she's telling you is

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absolutely true I could validate it so I

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got validations with all these stories

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and

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um one of the things I've learned as a

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near death near-death researcher I do

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not want to stay in the same place

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you know most of your scientific

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researchers will pick a particular

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hospital or a particular group of people

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and they'll stick there

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yeah all their research is is very very

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good research but it's you know it's

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within that particular Arena no

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I want to get get out there and see as

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many people as I can in as many parts of

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our world as I can and I do indeed in

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this book

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um

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and and different classifications of you

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know uh

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Echo and Eco economics

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and and this this one woman wrote me

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back and she said you know near-death

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experience near-death researchers never

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contact people like me

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never

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I'm poor

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I don't have hardly any money

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but I want to participate and do you

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know she saved her penny

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until she could pay enough for a folder

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to send me

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uh you know what she had to say what she

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had to offer

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and I almost cried I mean it was just

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fantastic and she felt so held to be

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able to participate

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and you know people and and Cordova had

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a lot of people in Ecuador I don't know

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how they found out about me but they did

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I had uh three

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um

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in in

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um these the Voodoo People

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they did not know each other they never

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spoke to each other different parts of

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the of of the Southern world

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and in each of the three near-death

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experiences

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they were met by Jesus and they knew his

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name

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they know the Bible they didn't know the

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name of the Bible they didn't know words

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for Bible

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they didn't know words for Christianity

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but they knew Jesus

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now I can't explain that that's an

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anomaly obviously

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but what do you do with that

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well I reported it yeah play off of that

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for a second because let me pull up a

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page from the book

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oh okay

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okay so you know you're out there

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collecting these stories you mentioned

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that other near-death experience

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research has done different ways some

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stick very close to in hospital others

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have seen the need like you have to go

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for accounts but invariably what we're

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coming back to is what we can get what

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we can verify and you claim to have some

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verifiable information on these people

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and one of the things that immediately

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caught my attention was IQ score

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which is very interesting because I mean

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IQ scores really kind of

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I mean where did you get IQ scores on

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all these the parents

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how parents I have four kids I don't I

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have four kids I don't they're all grown

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I don't have IQ scores they don't do IQ

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scores in schools anymore there's no

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such thing you know when what's that

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all of them Ecuador they did in the

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voodoo people did

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uh and sometimes the uh uh

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these children as they grew older they

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knew their scores

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um so I I just ask them I didn't have

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any questions in those figures

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you know these figures in and of

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themselves are

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they're stuck well they're a statistical

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anomaly that you know he would just want

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to really investigate you you say that

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50 of them had 150 to 160 IQ score you

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know the odds of a 150 IQ scores like

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one in five not Fifty forty eight eight

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percent well if we're going to be

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precise it's about 100 150 to 160. okay

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48 but it's one in 500 people have that

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and then you say

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IQ score begins at 180

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for this other group of other ones and

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look at the kids that had it you got to

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verify this you gotta 180 is one out of

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ten thousand so how many people do you

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have how many people do you have that

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scored how many people do you have that

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scored

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180 on their IQ test and where where is

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where can we find that data where can we

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ver that's a very precise number do you

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did you publish the IQ score numbers and

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where you got them and how they match to

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you know even if you

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but kind of hide the identity I

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I scored the percentages I found

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you scored What percentages

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well the subgroup only those how many

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are in that group how many how many

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people were one out of ten thousand in

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I don't understand what you're saying to

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me well you here right out of the book

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there's a subgroup you say there's a

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subgroup

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yeah those are six right how many people

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are in that subgroup

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I can't tell you off the top of my head

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I'd have to go in my research to tell

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you that

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okay well I can I can wait because 80

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percent of them

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I'm sorry eight let's be precise 81 of

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them were in this

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yeah

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so approximately how many people this is

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an astronomically High number yes

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if you can verify it which I can't

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imagine why you wouldn't want to well I

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did and their parents

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you again it just doesn't that's the

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only way I have a verifying this is to

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talk to the parents

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and so I'm just saying you know like

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when Trump uh uh a few years ago he kind

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of criticized somebody for saying their

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IQ score and everyone in the media got

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on him and they said this is outdated

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there's no such thing as an IQ you can

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get an IQ score but you don't get it

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normally like in going to school like I

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say my kids don't have an IQ score none

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of the people I know have an IQ score

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they get tested like crazy kids do in

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school but not this IQ score so it just

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struck me as very unusual and if you do

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have IQ school for people of those ages

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I I I don't think that's I don't think

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that's true either I don't have an I

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don't know my IQ score

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I don't know anyone mine who knows their

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IQ score it's not mine but I've long

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um

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I mean it was just part of school you

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okay

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how does a researcher who claims this

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what do you think you what do you think

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is appropriate for me because I'm

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pushing on you pretty hard here what is

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a what is the appropriate level of

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pushback I should do in terms of you

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saying you have an extraordinary uh data

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claim here that you have a significant

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number of people I mean you have I don't

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20 people that had an IQ score of 180

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which is one out of ten thousand

281
00:13:13,730 --> 00:13:09,240
if you have 20 people in your group I

282
00:13:21,350 --> 00:13:18,470
still if even if you say you have 48 of

283
00:13:23,210 --> 00:13:21,360
uh genius level one out of 500 given the

284
00:13:24,769 --> 00:13:23,220
stories these people what do you think

285
00:13:30,110 --> 00:13:24,779
is your

286
00:13:31,850 --> 00:13:30,120
obligation to back that up to verify

287
00:13:34,190 --> 00:13:31,860
that to show that you really do have

288
00:13:35,569 --> 00:13:34,200
scores did you did you publish any of

289
00:13:37,550 --> 00:13:35,579
the scores did you publish the actual

290
00:13:39,769 --> 00:13:37,560
data even with even if you don't know

291
00:13:41,629 --> 00:13:39,779
it's not not you don't have to you don't

292
00:13:43,009 --> 00:13:41,639
have to tie to the individual I had a

293
00:13:45,889 --> 00:13:43,019
book I wrote I wrote the book for the

294
00:13:48,290 --> 00:13:45,899
general public you're you're not going

295
00:13:51,710 --> 00:13:48,300
to have those kind of scores in a book

296
00:13:53,569 --> 00:13:51,720
for the general public why not

297
00:13:56,150 --> 00:13:53,579
they're not going to read it

298
00:13:58,250 --> 00:13:56,160
well I then then publish it elsewhere so

299
00:14:01,370 --> 00:13:58,260
that people who follow this research can

300
00:14:03,769 --> 00:14:01,380
feel confident that these extraordinary

301
00:14:05,509 --> 00:14:03,779
claims are are backed up with data you

302
00:14:08,150 --> 00:14:05,519
have all the case studies in there you

303
00:14:11,750 --> 00:14:08,160
you give the names and case number maybe

304
00:14:13,370 --> 00:14:11,760
you uh gave a a fictitious name but you

305
00:14:16,190 --> 00:14:13,380
have them all in there

306
00:14:19,250 --> 00:14:16,200
yeah do you have their do you have IQ

307
00:14:22,490 --> 00:14:19,260
scores on every one of them

308
00:14:24,710 --> 00:14:22,500
no not on every one of them most of them

309
00:14:26,210 --> 00:14:24,720
like what percent do you have IQ scores

310
00:14:28,970 --> 00:14:26,220
on

311
00:14:30,230 --> 00:14:28,980
know

312
00:14:32,389 --> 00:14:30,240
because you're making claims you're

313
00:14:37,009 --> 00:14:32,399
saying 48 percent

314
00:14:38,990 --> 00:14:37,019
were 150 to 160. so even though I did

315
00:14:41,689 --> 00:14:39,000
all of this

316
00:14:44,990 --> 00:14:41,699
a number of years ago

317
00:14:46,310 --> 00:14:45,000
I don't right now remember all those

318
00:14:48,710 --> 00:14:46,320
details

319
00:14:51,949 --> 00:14:48,720
I'd have to go back to the boxes that

320
00:14:53,269 --> 00:14:51,959
are stored in my storage room and pull

321
00:14:56,990 --> 00:14:53,279
it all out

322
00:14:59,269 --> 00:14:57,000
and go through it each one and read them

323
00:15:01,189 --> 00:14:59,279
I don't I don't have a photographic

324
00:15:03,710 --> 00:15:01,199
photographic memory

325
00:15:05,150 --> 00:15:03,720
so I'm not able to pull out of my mind

326
00:15:07,069 --> 00:15:05,160
right now

327
00:15:11,889 --> 00:15:07,079
all of the answers

328
00:15:13,990 --> 00:15:11,899
what I'm showing you is what I found

329
00:15:21,949 --> 00:15:14,000
with

330
00:15:26,210 --> 00:15:21,959
it gives you then an idea if you want

331
00:15:28,610 --> 00:15:26,220
it gives you then a trend or it gives

332
00:15:30,170 --> 00:15:28,620
you then

333
00:15:35,329 --> 00:15:30,180
um

334
00:15:37,850 --> 00:15:35,339
what I found

335
00:15:40,670 --> 00:15:37,860
in dealing with these kids

336
00:15:42,829 --> 00:15:40,680
because you you have a child between

337
00:15:44,689 --> 00:15:42,839
birth and the age of five whereas a

338
00:15:47,449 --> 00:15:44,699
near-death experience

339
00:15:50,150 --> 00:15:47,459
most of them not all of them

340
00:15:52,430 --> 00:15:50,160
most of them come back unusually

341
00:15:55,250 --> 00:15:52,440
intelligent

342
00:15:57,250 --> 00:15:55,260
okay where is that coming from

343
00:16:00,170 --> 00:15:57,260
we don't know

344
00:16:01,730 --> 00:16:00,180
nobody knows

345
00:16:04,790 --> 00:16:01,740
look

346
00:16:08,150 --> 00:16:04,800
one-third of them could remember

347
00:16:11,090 --> 00:16:08,160
life in the womb most of them could

348
00:16:13,550 --> 00:16:11,100
remember birth

349
00:16:17,509 --> 00:16:13,560
I can tell you all about

350
00:16:24,769 --> 00:16:20,569
this is pushing on things like abortion

351
00:16:29,569 --> 00:16:24,779
and all the all this other stuff

352
00:16:33,170 --> 00:16:29,579
and and I'm I'm inviting people

353
00:16:36,110 --> 00:16:33,180
to look again at all these subjects

354
00:16:38,150 --> 00:16:36,120
that we think we know all about and that

355
00:16:41,629 --> 00:16:38,160
we think we can prove one way or another

356
00:16:44,810 --> 00:16:41,639
scientifically or not

357
00:16:47,150 --> 00:16:44,820
and we're not looking at well what at

358
00:16:49,189 --> 00:16:47,160
the lives of these people

359
00:16:51,470 --> 00:16:49,199
and how they live

360
00:16:55,009 --> 00:16:51,480
and what they deal with

361
00:16:58,009 --> 00:16:55,019
we're not looking at from birth to the

362
00:17:00,230 --> 00:16:58,019
age of five and then there's and then

363
00:17:03,230 --> 00:17:00,240
they're now much older

364
00:17:05,750 --> 00:17:03,240
what was that like for them

365
00:17:07,789 --> 00:17:05,760
and it was not pleasant for most of them

366
00:17:10,069 --> 00:17:07,799
or for many of them

367
00:17:11,449 --> 00:17:10,079
if you read through that book you can

368
00:17:13,669 --> 00:17:11,459
see

369
00:17:15,470 --> 00:17:13,679
I read the whole book and you know

370
00:17:17,870 --> 00:17:15,480
yesterday we were scheduled to do this

371
00:17:19,730 --> 00:17:17,880
it's funny how things turn out

372
00:17:21,530 --> 00:17:19,740
yesterday we were scheduled to do this

373
00:17:25,370 --> 00:17:21,540
interview and yeah and we couldn't get

374
00:17:27,770 --> 00:17:25,380
through I I don't I I have a hard time I

375
00:17:29,090 --> 00:17:27,780
I do a lot of these interviews pmh I do

376
00:17:31,190 --> 00:17:29,100
a lot of these interviews I've been

377
00:17:33,950 --> 00:17:31,200
interviewed a lot the circumstances

378
00:17:35,990 --> 00:17:33,960
surrounding the delay in this just it

379
00:17:38,930 --> 00:17:36,000
just ringed a bell in my head it just

380
00:17:40,850 --> 00:17:38,940
didn't ring authentic and the whole

381
00:17:42,710 --> 00:17:40,860
thing changed and it started going

382
00:17:45,169 --> 00:17:42,720
through my mind and the first thing that

383
00:17:47,930 --> 00:17:45,179
popped up is IQ score

384
00:17:50,150 --> 00:17:47,940
that that just jumps out at me as why is

385
00:17:51,890 --> 00:17:50,160
somebody talking about IQ score across

386
00:17:54,590 --> 00:17:51,900
the board that they interviewed these

387
00:17:57,350 --> 00:17:54,600
people around the world and they all had

388
00:18:00,110 --> 00:17:57,360
their IQ scores and I have I just said

389
00:18:03,590 --> 00:18:00,120
50 you corrected me 48 percent

390
00:18:07,130 --> 00:18:03,600
show the data if you have that data you

391
00:18:10,730 --> 00:18:07,140
have an extraordinarily powerful result

392
00:18:12,529 --> 00:18:10,740
and you should be uh kind of catapulted

393
00:18:14,150 --> 00:18:12,539
to the front for some kind of Prize or

394
00:18:16,490 --> 00:18:14,160
something like that but if you don't

395
00:18:19,610 --> 00:18:16,500
have the data if you can't dig through

396
00:18:22,370 --> 00:18:19,620
the boxes if you can't show not me but

397
00:18:24,470 --> 00:18:22,380
if you publish other people IQ scores

398
00:18:26,210 --> 00:18:24,480
and say here are the cases that I've

399
00:18:28,130 --> 00:18:26,220
laid out in this book and here are the

400
00:18:29,750 --> 00:18:28,140
IQ scores associated with those people

401
00:18:31,490 --> 00:18:29,760
and if you don't have some people come

402
00:18:33,110 --> 00:18:31,500
through and back in that up well then

403
00:18:35,630 --> 00:18:33,120
that's the kind of scrutiny I think you

404
00:18:37,010 --> 00:18:35,640
have to stand uh that you have to stand

405
00:18:38,690 --> 00:18:37,020
up against if you're going to claim to

406
00:18:41,029 --> 00:18:38,700
be a near-death experienced researcher

407
00:18:43,850 --> 00:18:41,039
so do you have that are you willing to

408
00:18:45,350 --> 00:18:43,860
go that extra mile to prove what you're

409
00:18:46,789 --> 00:18:45,360
claiming here because I have it in black

410
00:18:48,950 --> 00:18:46,799
and white what you're claiming you're

411
00:18:51,830 --> 00:18:48,960
saying that nearly all

412
00:18:54,710 --> 00:18:51,840
of these people in this nearly all in

413
00:18:56,930 --> 00:18:54,720
this group scored 180 which is one out

414
00:18:58,850 --> 00:18:56,940
of ten thousand there there weren't that

415
00:19:01,850 --> 00:18:58,860
many show us

416
00:19:03,830 --> 00:19:01,860
show us who scored 180. buy it two you

417
00:19:07,190 --> 00:19:03,840
have all the people listed in your book

418
00:19:08,750 --> 00:19:07,200
you you have extensive clips from what

419
00:19:11,450 --> 00:19:08,760
they provided you we have all the names

420
00:19:13,370 --> 00:19:11,460
and the case numbers show us right you

421
00:19:16,010 --> 00:19:13,380
would want to show us you're you're a

422
00:19:19,850 --> 00:19:16,020
researcher you're not a author you're a

423
00:19:23,210 --> 00:19:21,830
will you do that will you you know you

424
00:19:26,210 --> 00:19:23,220
can come back on you can show me the

425
00:19:28,090 --> 00:19:26,220
data and you can come back on and we can

426
00:19:31,970 --> 00:19:28,100
it would take

427
00:19:34,490 --> 00:19:31,980
hours and hours and hours it's worth it

428
00:19:37,549 --> 00:19:34,500
it's worth it because your claims are

429
00:19:40,730 --> 00:19:37,559
are quite extraordinary and they deserve

430
00:19:42,470 --> 00:19:40,740
to be backed up by that kind of data

431
00:19:44,450 --> 00:19:42,480
and you don't have to have all of them I

432
00:19:48,110 --> 00:19:44,460
mean you you know we are talking about

433
00:19:50,570 --> 00:19:48,120
120 cases here it's not like it's

434
00:19:52,850 --> 00:19:50,580
I'll pay you I'll pay you to to for your

435
00:19:57,110 --> 00:19:52,860
time to go through pay me to do that

436
00:20:02,990 --> 00:19:59,270
it would take two uh it would take up

437
00:20:05,090 --> 00:20:03,000
too too much time in my life right now

438
00:20:08,810 --> 00:20:05,100
I understand

439
00:20:11,570 --> 00:20:08,820
right now I'm dealing with pneumonia

440
00:20:13,250 --> 00:20:11,580
I'm I'm dealing with some significant

441
00:20:17,570 --> 00:20:13,260
health issues

442
00:20:21,230 --> 00:20:19,490
I understand

443
00:20:24,169 --> 00:20:21,240
I'm sorry

444
00:20:27,770 --> 00:20:24,179
but I'm not there were there was no

445
00:20:30,710 --> 00:20:27,780
reason for me at the time

446
00:20:33,650 --> 00:20:30,720
to do that I've never done that

447
00:20:35,690 --> 00:20:33,660
I've given you the micro percentages as

448
00:20:38,690 --> 00:20:35,700
I found them

449
00:20:42,770 --> 00:20:38,700
but I've never gone back at any time

450
00:20:44,510 --> 00:20:42,780
and said where that came from

451
00:20:47,270 --> 00:20:44,520
I've given you the generals the

452
00:20:50,150 --> 00:20:47,280
generalities was it black people was it

453
00:20:51,590 --> 00:20:50,160
white people was it was it Asians I've

454
00:20:55,250 --> 00:20:51,600
given you that

455
00:20:59,510 --> 00:20:55,260
I've given you what part part of of the

456
00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:04,610
but I'm not a Bruce Grayson

457
00:21:10,850 --> 00:21:07,610
I don't go back and give you that kind

458
00:21:14,690 --> 00:21:10,860
of scientific data because I'm not a

459
00:21:21,070 --> 00:21:19,070
I'm not I don't do gross Bruce Grayson's

460
00:21:26,750 --> 00:21:21,080
work

461
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:31,730
and to the best of my ability

462
00:21:42,890 --> 00:21:34,370
I give you

463
00:21:47,210 --> 00:21:42,900
that is based on what I find it's it's

464
00:21:47,220 --> 00:21:50,930
um

465
00:21:54,890 --> 00:21:52,970
it's not my intention to be a Bruce

466
00:21:56,570 --> 00:21:54,900
Grayson

467
00:21:59,510 --> 00:21:56,580
it sounds to me like that's what you

468
00:22:02,029 --> 00:21:59,520
want you want a Bruce Grayson

469
00:22:04,610 --> 00:22:02,039
I'm not

470
00:22:06,649 --> 00:22:04,620
I'm a cop on the beat

471
00:22:09,110 --> 00:22:06,659
I was raised in a police station

472
00:22:10,730 --> 00:22:09,120
I use police investigative techniques as

473
00:22:14,029 --> 00:22:10,740
an as my protocol

474
00:22:18,289 --> 00:22:14,039
I do not use scientific uh

475
00:22:43,610 --> 00:22:19,430
I

476
00:22:47,330 --> 00:22:43,620
you have something to tell me

477
00:22:53,029 --> 00:22:49,610
as much as I can I get into the people's

478
00:22:56,510 --> 00:22:54,770
I talk to their health caregivers

479
00:22:58,490 --> 00:22:56,520
whenever I can

480
00:23:03,110 --> 00:22:58,500
I talked to their families whenever I

481
00:23:05,570 --> 00:23:03,120
can to give give both sides

482
00:23:09,950 --> 00:23:05,580
I don't want to just give one side

483
00:23:11,870 --> 00:23:09,960
I want to get a well-rounded View

484
00:23:14,570 --> 00:23:11,880
of of what's going on with that

485
00:23:21,409 --> 00:23:18,770
especially with that that one girl

486
00:23:24,409 --> 00:23:21,419
who had 17 near-death experiences by the

487
00:23:28,850 --> 00:23:27,529
you know I mean I mean you're not going

488
00:23:30,289 --> 00:23:28,860
to

489
00:23:32,450 --> 00:23:30,299
um

490
00:23:36,110 --> 00:23:32,460
you're not going to be able to get Bruce

491
00:23:40,010 --> 00:23:36,120
Grayson kind of material from her

492
00:23:42,649 --> 00:23:40,020
and and her witchcraft parents

493
00:23:46,190 --> 00:23:42,659
the only reason they burst her

494
00:23:48,950 --> 00:23:46,200
and so that they would have a baby to

495
00:23:50,990 --> 00:23:48,960
use on Satan's altar

496
00:23:53,510 --> 00:23:51,000
I think that's a very significant

497
00:23:55,850 --> 00:23:53,520
account like I told you yesterday and

498
00:23:58,370 --> 00:23:55,860
I've interviewed several people who've

499
00:24:00,830 --> 00:23:58,380
been involved in Satanic ritual abuse

500
00:24:05,210 --> 00:24:00,840
cases and can back it up but the

501
00:24:07,789 --> 00:24:05,220
important thing pmh I there just has to

502
00:24:11,390 --> 00:24:07,799
we got to be super strict about

503
00:24:14,750 --> 00:24:11,400
credibility in this field and we have to

504
00:24:17,149 --> 00:24:14,760
be squeaky clean and you got to take the

505
00:24:19,490 --> 00:24:17,159
pushback you got to take the arrows both

506
00:24:21,350 --> 00:24:19,500
on the front and the back I'm telling

507
00:24:22,549 --> 00:24:21,360
you this is a different interview we're

508
00:24:24,049 --> 00:24:22,559
doing today

509
00:24:26,210 --> 00:24:24,059
than we would have done yesterday

510
00:24:29,090 --> 00:24:26,220
because yesterday I had a whole

511
00:24:31,730 --> 00:24:29,100
different perspective and I was up last

512
00:24:33,649 --> 00:24:31,740
night tossing and turning and first

513
00:24:35,450 --> 00:24:33,659
thing this morning I was looking at IQ

514
00:24:37,130 --> 00:24:35,460
scores I was looking at the history of

515
00:24:39,649 --> 00:24:37,140
IQ scores and I was looking how they

516
00:24:41,750 --> 00:24:39,659
don't have they're just not it's an

517
00:24:44,330 --> 00:24:41,760
old-fashioned thing they don't do them

518
00:24:45,710 --> 00:24:44,340
anymore there's no way that I'm not

519
00:24:47,870 --> 00:24:45,720
saying there's no way maybe you have a

520
00:24:50,270 --> 00:24:47,880
way but if you have that you got to back

521
00:24:52,370 --> 00:24:50,280
that up and if you can't back it up then

522
00:24:55,250 --> 00:24:52,380
I don't have any more questions I'd love

523
00:24:57,230 --> 00:24:55,260
to you to talk about uh the alien

524
00:24:59,690 --> 00:24:57,240
contact extra terrestrial contact I

525
00:25:01,130 --> 00:24:59,700
think it's a significant question in

526
00:25:03,890 --> 00:25:01,140
this whole dear death experience field

527
00:25:05,990 --> 00:25:03,900
I'd love to talk about the Satanic

528
00:25:09,230 --> 00:25:06,000
ritual abuse connection and the

529
00:25:13,010 --> 00:25:09,240
Consciousness and evil and how how that

530
00:25:15,529 --> 00:25:13,020
all plays out we are in a a you know a

531
00:25:17,930 --> 00:25:15,539
battlefield heel here of materialistic

532
00:25:19,970 --> 00:25:17,940
science that denies this whole thing but

533
00:25:21,169 --> 00:25:19,980
that's all the male reason to Double

534
00:25:24,110 --> 00:25:21,179
Down

535
00:25:26,390 --> 00:25:24,120
on the research and you gotta show you

536
00:25:27,710 --> 00:25:26,400
gotta deliver the goods so the goods

537
00:25:30,529 --> 00:25:27,720
right now that I'm holding your account

538
00:25:32,990 --> 00:25:30,539
to is those IQ scored and you say you

539
00:25:34,669 --> 00:25:33,000
got them and if you got them you got to

540
00:25:36,710 --> 00:25:34,679
show them and if you can't show them

541
00:25:39,049 --> 00:25:36,720
then we're talking about something else

542
00:25:40,490 --> 00:25:39,059
you know you keep your research for 10

543
00:25:45,169 --> 00:25:40,500
years

544
00:25:47,390 --> 00:25:45,179
those boxes

545
00:25:49,070 --> 00:25:47,400
so I've thrown a number of them away of

546
00:25:50,690 --> 00:25:49,080
course because I'm I've been doing this

547
00:25:55,430 --> 00:25:50,700
for 44 years

548
00:25:57,169 --> 00:25:55,440
I've I've only got one box left now

549
00:25:59,810 --> 00:25:57,179
um

550
00:26:02,049 --> 00:25:59,820
so that there's just simply no way I can

551
00:26:06,049 --> 00:26:02,059
go back

552
00:26:07,430 --> 00:26:06,059
but I can't yeah well there's no way I

553
00:26:10,370 --> 00:26:07,440
can there's no way I can go forward

554
00:26:13,190 --> 00:26:10,380
there's no way I can go forward with the

555
00:26:15,890 --> 00:26:13,200
interview I just don't feel comfortable

556
00:26:17,750 --> 00:26:15,900
going forward I I it just doesn't ring

557
00:26:20,690 --> 00:26:17,760
true I just straight up it doesn't ring

558
00:26:25,789 --> 00:26:23,630
it's what I found right it's what I

559
00:26:29,330 --> 00:26:25,799
recorded yeah

560
00:26:32,090 --> 00:26:29,340
and it's the best I can offer you

561
00:26:35,090 --> 00:26:32,100
because it's what I wrote down

562
00:26:38,090 --> 00:26:35,100
it's what I backed up

563
00:26:39,049 --> 00:26:38,100
and I cannot go back to those boxes of

564
00:26:44,330 --> 00:26:39,059
material

565
00:26:48,890 --> 00:26:46,370
I've been doing this for 44 years they

566
00:26:52,070 --> 00:26:48,900
don't exist now

567
00:26:54,490 --> 00:26:52,080
well I'll just say this for people as we

568
00:26:57,470 --> 00:26:54,500
kind of wrap it up the book is

569
00:27:01,010 --> 00:26:57,480
extraordinary I gotta believe you do

570
00:27:03,230 --> 00:27:01,020
have these accounts uh you quote from

571
00:27:05,570 --> 00:27:03,240
them extensively in the book and there's

572
00:27:07,310 --> 00:27:05,580
a lot of interesting uh interesting

573
00:27:10,250 --> 00:27:07,320
information there I was Spellbound

574
00:27:12,769 --> 00:27:10,260
reading it so people can pick it up and

575
00:27:15,049 --> 00:27:12,779
then you know

576
00:27:17,330 --> 00:27:15,059
sorry I'm not Bruce Grayson you're not

577
00:27:18,890 --> 00:27:17,340
Bruce Grayson and I'm not you know all

578
00:27:20,870 --> 00:27:18,900
the nice people that have interviewed

579
00:27:22,850 --> 00:27:20,880
you I'm not brisk racing either who was

580
00:27:25,370 --> 00:27:22,860
very complimentary of your book as was

581
00:27:28,250 --> 00:27:25,380
everyone else so hey you know everyone

582
00:27:30,289 --> 00:27:28,260
has a different opinion and you're

583
00:27:32,810 --> 00:27:30,299
stand up strong and

584
00:27:35,450 --> 00:27:32,820
account for yourself which is awesome I

585
00:27:38,570 --> 00:27:35,460
appreciate you doing it

586
00:27:41,930 --> 00:27:38,580
well I I did my best

587
00:27:44,510 --> 00:27:41,940
right on thank you pmh you betcha thank

588
00:27:46,310 --> 00:27:44,520
you bye-bye thanks again to pmh out

589
00:27:48,590 --> 00:27:46,320
water for joining me today on skeptico

590
00:27:52,070 --> 00:27:48,600
I've had a number of emails back and

591
00:27:55,630 --> 00:27:52,080
forth with pmh and I've decided to

592
00:27:58,669 --> 00:27:55,640
release this show without comment so

593
00:28:00,110 --> 00:27:58,679
that's what I'm going to do but it

594
00:28:02,149 --> 00:28:00,120
doesn't mean I wouldn't like to hear

595
00:28:04,190 --> 00:28:02,159
from you join me over in the skeptical

596
00:28:07,490 --> 00:28:04,200
Forum I've tried a bunch of other

597
00:28:10,130 --> 00:28:07,500
platforms it's the only place I like to

598
00:28:12,830 --> 00:28:10,140
be if you want to talk to me go to the

599
00:28:15,300 --> 00:28:12,840
skeptical Forum until next time take